[Suggestion] Restrict Rugby Passes to Improve Gameplay
@Sweeper Think I understand just fine.
@gibby When the original rugby was put in place also not all people said "uhhh wow this is what we needed the last ten years. It is perfect and we want it to stay like this."
You can see in gustavos code that he even tried this inverted flag thing. But that is something which would not work with forward passing at all.
I just think the whole thing was never finished and one could try out something new. Once again the goal is to improve the fun for everyone.
Honzik1 pointed me to some stats in the sauertracker where he wanted to show that people pass less now. It is indeed true for some maps like akroseum. But overall it did not change much and also did not change the outcome of completely unbalanced games.
If you care about the mass of people... they don't even know what rugby is and they do not pass at all. Did not, do not now so nothing changed for them besides they might see it more visible on their screens now.
Finally, yes, come online and play it before you just rant. I have played the changed modes at least 10 to 15 hours already and I also ask the people if they like it or not. Just now I asked again, mostly Germans online...
(in response to my question if it is ok... "what does the green rays do appearing for some?", "it is quite good now ")
("ah good idea")
("ah ok thanks, yes I agree with it")
But no matter what. I am here and I am happy that you guys try out this stuff with us. Please keep up the discussion. It is just hard for me to "measure" what is the overall opinion about it. I don't think a poll here would be representative for all players so I try to be online as much as I can and listen to what users say.
@Obstriegel Well. I'm not a flagrunner. but I welcome the idea of complicating the game. players must understand that they must fight for every flag. players must to understand that they need to protect the flagrunner and render their life, if necessary. players must to start to think and monitor the movement of each team member. Obst, thank you. perhaps you will make a standard of server. my only remark: the green glow a little prevents me from shooting, if the flag appears in my hands suddenly)
I agree 100% with @gibby , the problems with the original passing rule are greatly exaggerated.
Inverted flags does sound interesting though...
@negus It's not that the problems with the original passing rule are overly exaggerated, it's just how easy it can be on open maps like wdcd. The offense gets a serious boost, thus leaving very little room for error for flag defending, which requires teamwork... or very good skills.
That's just about it, though. As far as I can tell, there are many maps aside from the open ones that can be played... and then there are maps like xenon that makes rugby almost a damn blessing.
We got more positive feedback today
What happens often now:
4:1 ... two players have 64 and 65 frags
@Obstriegel making maps like wdcd and face capture last longer is hardly a success.........
@Ao1-Pointblank you contradict yourself. You want more maps in the rotation but they should be played with a broken mod then? hahaha
Really not my problem that you have such a bad taste in level design.
@Obstriegel Open field is not a design
maps that are too open are not ruined by rugby, they are the things that are bad by themselves. but by having an unrestricted passing system, we have a higher chance of them being ended quickly.
the fact of the matter is, most of those sorts of maps were never intended for instagib.
i have no problem with every map being on the server, even ones i don't like. but i do have a problem with long "cold wars" on maps where no one can gain the upper hand. rugby ended that problem very effectively.
@Ao1-Pointblank When I started playing sauer there was a lot of instactf wdcd. It was for me a good map to start with and I think it is for every noob.
Simply because you do not have a maze you have to learn. You focus on simple stuff, can see the target all the time. You place yourself near a bridge and train aiming on a flat surface. You also learn a very basic rifle jump on that light to quickly grab a flag. Basic things which come in handy on more complicated maps.
With limited passing range people will rediscover the paths on the sides.
By the way, the server should display now how far you passed in the incredible ogro feet unit invented by ztk.
Well you just choose 2 games which happened to agree with your point. And there are also players who don't like it, it's true that I don't have screenshots though...
And nobody said that rapes didn't happen with the old rules... Just that it is not as a big problem and rarer than some people here say.
Btw. wdcd was not ruined at all with the original rules. Yea if the teams were really unbalanced then it was possible to get 10-0 but that is also true now, and otherwise even with original rugby you could do a good defense there.
Anyway I played and thought about it a bit more.
Why I don't like the new passing is that it feels like a completely arbitrary and annoying restriction (well, it is). For example,
I liked to pass to my base on akroseum while in the air after getting to the jumppad in the corner which is not possible now. Oh but if I fall some more then I suddenly can, expect it's hard to see when the green stuff appears from that distance while flying so I can't time it well. Or urban_c, now you can't do very long passes along the sides but can do almost as long ones which are basically the same but now I have to watch when I get in range and which teammates are in range instead of watching the enemy - it's annoying. Then the teammates will see that I'm not passing and start to move to get in range - worse. fc5 was also great with the original rules - now it's not. I'm sure I will find more examples as I play.
On some maps, even restricted passing would not solve the balance problems, e.g. on shipwreck, passing from the ship on the water to the cliff is a really short distance, if you restrict that much you might as well disable passing there (I haven't had the chance to play shipwreck with the new rules yet, maybe it's already that much restricted but then there is no point in calling it rugby).
The main argument of the new rules' proponents seems to be the cases where you can directly pass from enemy base to your flag. Fine, then restore original passing on all maps where this is not the case (keep the green stuff as to not confuse players), and for those maps (face, mbt1, maybe some other I don't recall now) where there is direct line of sight from flag to flag keep the range limited so it is just not enough to pass directly from base to base.
What I think is unrestricted passing does not make the game easier at all. People will actually have to defend instead of running around mindlessly - and I think that's good.
Edit: And I also suspect that some people who say they like the changes mean the indicator (which is OK) not the range restriction itself.
@negus yes that last point you made shows how people in favor of the 'improved' rugby contradict themselves. They say regular rugby is too easy, noobs can win it. Then say it's impossible to win on maps like face capture when someone like Duke invades your base and singlehandedly gets 5 passes.
They are forgetting there are always 2 sides to a fight, a winner and a loser.
Their argument is in defense of both sides.
I bet they wouldn't see a problem if they were the ones getting those passes. It looks to me they just want to drag everyone down to their level.
But hey, what do I know? It's only like I've played rugby almost every day for the last two years. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
In my opinion before going further with any changes a robust and working autobalance should be implemented.
The number one cause of fast 10-0 games are imbalanced teams most of the time. Then the second most common cause is the map itself. For example i could singlehandedly decide matches on face-capture once i managed to get into the enemy base then i just had to pass,pass,pass and that's it,zero teamwork was involved.I just needed to find a teammate any time when i wanted to pass from the enemy base. However getting into the enemy base was a lot harder if not impossible when the teams were properly balanced and at those times the score reflected it and the game in these cases ended with something like 1-0,2-0,1-1 so very few scores with little to no difference(i'm talking about full range passing here).
Although full range passing opened up some interesting gameplay elements and strategies it also greatly reduced the need for teamwork which is really weird in a mode like CTF. The reduced range on passing feels okay i would say as it does reduce the imbalance but as others said less skilled players may struggle with it but then again they just need to git gud just as i did when there were no rugby on demophobia and had to haul my ass from the enemy base to ours.
The swapped bases however were a good direction in my opinion as it encouraged teamwork and scoring required a pack like movement from everyone to defend the carrier. Selectively activating this mode on some maps may help. Restricting passing in another way than range would make it inconsistent rather i don't see a good way to do it other than range.
All in all properly balanced teams should be the first and foremost goal to achieve with full range passing to see how the overall scores on maps change. I would say 1 month is needed at least or even more to gather enough data.
And no i don't know a good way to implement such a system as i didn't tackle such problem before thus i can't give any idea regarding this either. But based on the data that is available on sauertracker already i think it could work.
@negus During the initial testing I spent like 5 hours each day on the server to collect feedback. When the range is unlimited nobody needs an indicator. It would be just meaningless visual clutter which costs network packets.
Akroseum: Yes it is not perfect there. But it is possible to throw the flag while being mid air. However the map is unbalanced anyway. Being able to grab flag, and just pass directly to your home to someone standing next to the flag is shit. Now you gotta place someone on the pillars.
However, because there is so much distance while using the jumppads I thought about removing the height axis from calculating the distance. So it would not matter anymore if you are very high in the air and someone else standing on the ground.
urban_c: I have played a couple of rounds there. killed everything, passed, won. It is fun. You just can't pass to that guy lurking at the corner in your base anymore but this is exactly what this mod should prevent.
fc5: Before you could take the flag, use the teleporter to the roof and give it to someone on your tower or on the wall right next to your flag. Yes that is what should be prevented. It is always the same, you now have to take the flag and move a bit out of the enemy base. Get teammates to camp around the middle house maybe? It is a great spot!
shipwreck: In general the rule is passing distance is maximal 40% of flag (base) distance. So no those are not restricted. Rugby in any form does not fix this unbalanced map, yes. It is not in the scope of what we are discussing here.
In general my opinion is that Rugby is a funny thing but we should also respect that the maps we currently play were not made with unlimited passing in mind. Mappers put a lot of thinking into it on to how to enter AND to exit a base. I would also love it when we would see some specialized rugby maps in the future which might be longer and encourage or even require passing the flag.
You just can't pass to that guy lurking at the corner in your base anymore but this is exactly what this mod should prevent.
Before you could take the flag, use the teleporter to the roof and give it to someone on your tower or on the wall right next to your flag. Yes that is what should be prevented.
Yeah here is the disagreement, imo these are valid tactics and shouldn't be prevented. They require some teamwork and not just soloing the flagrun, so they're fun from the attacker side.
And it is not so easy to pull them off either, even with original rugby I remember on urban_c like a million times shouting GO LEFT LEFT LEFT RECEIVE LEFT LEFT RECEIVE!! LEFT NOT RIGHT!! and people just running around randomly instead of receiving a free flag. So why not reward teamwork...
It is also entirely possible but somewhat challenging to defend against these attacks, which I also find a fun challenge. These attacks work for both sides so these maps are not inherently unbalanced either.
akroseum was never really unbalanced, at least compared to a lot of other maps, and you can't really pass base-to-base there even with unrestricted rugby..
Change! Burn it to ashes!
Maximum passing range on fc5 and akroseum have been adjusted.
@negus On fc5 you should stand on that tower in your base to receive the flag from the top of the house.
On akroseum the limit has been increased a lot as that map has so great height differences (huge jumppads).